1 00:00:00,570 --> 00:00:09,264 *preroll music* 2 00:00:09,264 --> 00:00:12,579 Herald Angel: What does Big Brother see while he is watching? 3 00:00:12,579 --> 00:00:15,879 Simon Menner is talking to you about this: 4 00:00:15,879 --> 00:00:19,860 "Uncovering Images from the secret Stasi Archives." 5 00:00:19,860 --> 00:00:23,510 He was born 1978 in southern Germany, 6 00:00:23,510 --> 00:00:27,120 now he lives and works in Berlin. 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,289 He does a lot of stuff with photography 8 00:00:30,289 --> 00:00:33,540 and history. And he has been researching 9 00:00:33,540 --> 00:00:38,780 for three years in Stasi files and images. 10 00:00:38,780 --> 00:00:41,030 And he is going to show us why this is 11 00:00:41,030 --> 00:00:43,739 still relevant today, or even 12 00:00:43,739 --> 00:00:48,840 more relevant than ever. Give him a warm welcome. 13 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,160 *applause* 14 00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:56,960 Simon: thank you. 15 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,829 I was told to use this rather than the 16 00:00:59,829 --> 00:01:03,550 lavalier mic, so I hope it works. 17 00:01:03,550 --> 00:01:05,309 First a disclaimer: I'm an artist 18 00:01:05,309 --> 00:01:07,990 I am not a historian, so my approach to 19 00:01:07,990 --> 00:01:10,100 the material I am going to show you is 20 00:01:10,100 --> 00:01:12,100 somewhat different from what you might expect 21 00:01:12,100 --> 00:01:15,700 from a regular historian. But we can 22 00:01:15,700 --> 00:01:18,720 discuss this as we go on. 23 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,540 And very very briefly, before I am going 24 00:01:21,540 --> 00:01:23,549 to show you images I have found at the 25 00:01:23,549 --> 00:01:27,159 archive of the Stasi and some very few 26 00:01:27,159 --> 00:01:30,049 I have found at the archive of the BND - 27 00:01:30,049 --> 00:01:32,729 I am going to show you three bodies of work 28 00:01:32,729 --> 00:01:35,900 that brought me to my interest in the 29 00:01:35,900 --> 00:01:40,470 Stasi files. So, I am a trained artist. 30 00:01:40,470 --> 00:01:42,510 I'm a photographer and normally I do 31 00:01:42,510 --> 00:01:47,860 things like this. I am very interested in 32 00:01:47,860 --> 00:01:52,140 the relationship of perception... what 33 00:01:52,140 --> 00:01:55,920 perception does within the context 34 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,520 of modern conflict. It turns out, 35 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,930 more importantly, perception is a battle field. 36 00:02:04,930 --> 00:02:09,630 And fear is a weapon. And this is actually 37 00:02:09,630 --> 00:02:11,650 not just a set of landscape images. 38 00:02:11,650 --> 00:02:14,340 It is actually a set of photographs for 39 00:02:14,340 --> 00:02:16,550 which I had to have support by the German Army. 40 00:02:16,550 --> 00:02:18,470 They supported me with snipers. 41 00:02:18,470 --> 00:02:20,599 They were hiding in the landscape and were 42 00:02:20,599 --> 00:02:21,860 aiming at the camera, and therefore at the 43 00:02:21,860 --> 00:02:24,580 viewer. Which is ... okay ... of course. 44 00:02:24,580 --> 00:02:27,620 So, the sniper would be here. And in most 45 00:02:27,620 --> 00:02:30,069 of the pictures from this series there is 46 00:02:30,069 --> 00:02:32,349 actually almost no trace to be seen from 47 00:02:32,349 --> 00:02:34,810 the sniper. But this is the way 48 00:02:34,810 --> 00:02:37,260 a sniper looks within the landscape. 49 00:02:37,260 --> 00:02:41,440 So they were ordered to aim at me. 50 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:42,870 Even though I couldn't see them. So, 51 00:02:42,870 --> 00:02:44,510 sometimes, when they were posing, I told 52 00:02:44,510 --> 00:02:47,050 them: "Well, just don't hide behind a tree 53 00:02:47,050 --> 00:02:49,879 and I don't see you." And they told me: 54 00:02:49,879 --> 00:02:53,970 "No no, don't worry, we are aiming at you." 55 00:02:53,970 --> 00:02:56,040 *laughter* 56 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:57,830 Of course, the whole thing is artificial. 57 00:02:57,830 --> 00:02:59,790 Because they would never choose this kind 58 00:02:59,790 --> 00:03:01,720 of setting and this kind of environment 59 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,319 for their... To pose a threat. 60 00:03:04,319 --> 00:03:06,069 There's a sniper here, or 61 00:03:06,069 --> 00:03:07,709 there's a sniper here. 62 00:03:07,709 --> 00:03:10,010 But this is something that really plays an 63 00:03:10,010 --> 00:03:11,840 important role in today's conflicts 64 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:16,090 That you try to occupy your opponent's mind. 65 00:03:16,090 --> 00:03:18,129 And influence his or her behaviour 66 00:03:18,129 --> 00:03:21,410 in that way, through creating fear. That's 67 00:03:21,410 --> 00:03:26,190 another set of images, it's based on 68 00:03:26,190 --> 00:03:27,950 handbooks by the US Army on how to 69 00:03:27,950 --> 00:03:30,200 construct booby traps out of ordinary 70 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,590 objects. Like here, a TV set or radio. 71 00:03:32,590 --> 00:03:36,819 If you switch it on, it blows up. A box, 72 00:03:36,819 --> 00:03:39,349 or a pipe - as an artist, I find this 73 00:03:39,349 --> 00:03:41,330 image very intriguing, because there is 74 00:03:41,330 --> 00:03:44,760 this one very famous painting by Margritte 75 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:46,550 ´This is not a pipe' - actually, this is 76 00:03:46,550 --> 00:03:47,330 not a pipe, laughter 77 00:03:47,330 --> 00:03:50,519 even though it is supposed to look like a pipe. 78 00:03:50,519 --> 00:03:51,440 *applause* 79 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,159 So be aware, that's from the sixties, from 80 00:03:54,159 --> 00:03:56,489 the US Army, and these handbooks are now 81 00:03:56,489 --> 00:04:01,010 out there and used by the opposing forces. 82 00:04:01,010 --> 00:04:02,849 By forces they encounter. And the 83 00:04:02,849 --> 00:04:06,780 whole story behind these manuals is, well, 84 00:04:06,780 --> 00:04:08,290 you're supposed to create fear in your 85 00:04:08,290 --> 00:04:12,120 opponent. Here is a German chocolate bar, 86 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,190 if you break it, it blows up in your face. 87 00:04:15,190 --> 00:04:20,699 Or a tea kettle. The more ordinary objects 88 00:04:20,699 --> 00:04:23,129 are, the more terrifying it becomes. 89 00:04:23,129 --> 00:04:25,729 Because once you realise that there is no 90 00:04:25,729 --> 00:04:30,099 way for you to avoid this idea of fear 91 00:04:30,099 --> 00:04:32,759 everything is dangerous. Of course 92 00:04:32,759 --> 00:04:34,759 the other side does this as well. 93 00:04:34,759 --> 00:04:37,539 This is from videos I found online. 94 00:04:37,539 --> 00:04:41,009 This is the last video frame before the blast. 95 00:04:41,009 --> 00:04:42,900 So the last video frame before a car bomb 96 00:04:42,900 --> 00:04:45,629 or roadside bomb or something like this 97 00:04:45,629 --> 00:04:48,900 explodes. And the same here. 98 00:04:48,900 --> 00:04:52,860 So, it's the same technique. The more I 99 00:04:52,860 --> 00:04:54,809 was... the more research I did, 100 00:04:54,809 --> 00:04:58,539 in this big topic of fear and 101 00:04:58,539 --> 00:05:00,770 perception within conflict, 102 00:05:00,770 --> 00:05:03,309 I started to think more and more 103 00:05:03,309 --> 00:05:04,960 about the topic of surveillance. 104 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:06,539 Because the interesting aspect 105 00:05:06,539 --> 00:05:08,300 would be to look at images from, of 106 00:05:08,300 --> 00:05:12,539 surveillance. Because that would show us 107 00:05:12,539 --> 00:05:15,999 these mechanisms from the other side. 108 00:05:15,999 --> 00:05:18,110 but the strange thing is, we talk so much 109 00:05:18,110 --> 00:05:21,050 about surveillance. And much of what we 110 00:05:21,050 --> 00:05:23,779 talk about is image based. So, 111 00:05:23,779 --> 00:05:25,349 'Big Brother is watching you.' 112 00:05:25,349 --> 00:05:27,430 That has something to with images. 113 00:05:27,430 --> 00:05:29,430 But we take it for granted that there's 114 00:05:29,430 --> 00:05:31,199 nothing for us to see. 115 00:05:31,199 --> 00:05:32,969 Big Brother is watching us, but is hidden 116 00:05:32,969 --> 00:05:35,899 behind some curtains. But I came to realise 117 00:05:35,899 --> 00:05:38,330 that actually, withing the very unique 118 00:05:38,330 --> 00:05:41,499 history of Germany we have this huge 119 00:05:41,499 --> 00:05:45,860 opportunity in the Stasi archives that are 120 00:05:45,860 --> 00:05:50,469 accessible to the public, to do, try to 121 00:05:50,469 --> 00:05:53,669 show what Big Brother actually sees. 122 00:05:53,669 --> 00:05:55,879 And I approached them because I could only 123 00:05:55,879 --> 00:05:59,839 find written references to images they have. 124 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:00,939 And asked them: "Why?" 125 00:06:00,939 --> 00:06:03,830 I could never find any images. So, 126 00:06:03,830 --> 00:06:06,569 do they still exist? And they told me: 127 00:06:06,569 --> 00:06:09,339 "Sure, come over." And that was the start 128 00:06:09,339 --> 00:06:14,020 of a three year, or lengthy, research project. 129 00:06:14,020 --> 00:06:15,349 And first I am going to show you images 130 00:06:15,349 --> 00:06:18,009 I was then, in the end, not really 131 00:06:18,009 --> 00:06:20,389 interested in. Images we know exist. 132 00:06:20,389 --> 00:06:24,490 So, from now on, that's authentic Stasi 133 00:06:24,490 --> 00:06:28,409 material. There is some from the Czech Republic 134 00:06:28,409 --> 00:06:32,539 ČSSR. I will point them out and in the end 135 00:06:32,539 --> 00:06:34,990 there is some from the BND, I'll point 136 00:06:34,990 --> 00:06:37,899 those out as well. That is something 137 00:06:37,899 --> 00:06:41,379 we expect to see: shots taken through 138 00:06:41,379 --> 00:06:45,349 button holes and surveillance industries. 139 00:06:45,349 --> 00:06:47,710 That's the US embassy in East Berlin. 140 00:06:47,710 --> 00:06:52,249 And the entrance doors were all under 141 00:06:52,249 --> 00:06:55,139 constant surveillance. With photo cameras 142 00:06:55,139 --> 00:06:57,919 and video cameras. But be aware, in the 80s 143 00:06:57,919 --> 00:07:00,919 the video equipment was not that sophisticated. 144 00:07:00,919 --> 00:07:03,490 So, at night time, the Stasi did record 145 00:07:03,490 --> 00:07:05,580 eight hours of darkness. But it still 146 00:07:05,580 --> 00:07:08,399 ended up in the files. *laughter* 147 00:07:08,399 --> 00:07:10,669 That's the state of mind we are talking about. 148 00:07:10,669 --> 00:07:12,619 So, everyone was photographed, 149 00:07:12,619 --> 00:07:15,429 and then we have, quite often we find post 150 00:07:15,429 --> 00:07:20,080 boxes, where everyone posting a letter is 151 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,879 photographed. No matter, who he or she is. 152 00:07:22,879 --> 00:07:25,770 Even if it's an elderly lady. Remember 153 00:07:25,770 --> 00:07:27,179 these images, because I am going to 154 00:07:27,179 --> 00:07:30,939 reference to them later. I was more interested 155 00:07:30,939 --> 00:07:34,029 in something like this. So, the 156 00:07:34,029 --> 00:07:39,110 internal view. And now, two years ago I 157 00:07:39,110 --> 00:07:40,999 was able to publish a book and now I am 158 00:07:40,999 --> 00:07:43,550 going to somewhat follow the structure 159 00:07:43,550 --> 00:07:45,229 within the book, because I was really 160 00:07:45,229 --> 00:07:47,869 interested in how do you become a spy? 161 00:07:47,869 --> 00:07:50,969 And I encountered a lot of material 162 00:07:50,969 --> 00:07:53,729 that was meant for training purposes. 163 00:07:53,729 --> 00:07:55,949 These images are from a training session 164 00:07:55,949 --> 00:07:59,749 on how to disguise yourself as regular citiizens. 165 00:07:59,749 --> 00:08:01,389 laughter 166 00:08:01,389 --> 00:08:05,289 Which I found quite strange, because 167 00:08:05,289 --> 00:08:10,259 normally that's nothing you should have to learn. 168 00:08:10,259 --> 00:08:13,739 But still, and then you have a soldier. 169 00:08:13,739 --> 00:08:17,830 These ordinary citizens: some of them look 170 00:08:17,830 --> 00:08:22,169 like they live now in Berlin, amongst the hipsters 171 00:08:22,169 --> 00:08:26,039 like this one laughter that was entitled 172 00:08:26,039 --> 00:08:27,789 'Western Tourist' laughter 173 00:08:27,789 --> 00:08:31,219 Another tourist, like, the photographer. 174 00:08:31,219 --> 00:08:33,419 So, the Stasi photographed something that 175 00:08:33,419 --> 00:08:38,360 tried to look like a photographer. So. 176 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,849 Women work for the Stasi as well. 177 00:08:42,849 --> 00:08:46,300 The same thing, disguising manuals. 178 00:08:46,300 --> 00:08:48,730 What do you need to dress up like this. 179 00:08:48,730 --> 00:08:50,240 And in what circumstance would you use 180 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,079 something like this. He looks like from 181 00:08:52,079 --> 00:08:56,410 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' I think. 182 00:08:56,410 --> 00:09:00,810 But be aware, that's not meant to be funny. 183 00:09:00,810 --> 00:09:02,720 That was not meant to be seen by any one 184 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:08,500 of you or me. That was meant to train agents. 185 00:09:08,500 --> 00:09:11,720 And we are going to see later it was 186 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,519 actually used, here we have a hitchhiker, 187 00:09:15,519 --> 00:09:18,810 at a motor way around Berlin. And that is 188 00:09:18,810 --> 00:09:22,730 from the ČSSR archives to which I was 189 00:09:22,730 --> 00:09:24,769 granted acces earlier this year. They did 190 00:09:24,769 --> 00:09:27,350 the same thing, so it's not just something 191 00:09:27,350 --> 00:09:31,519 the Stasi did, they did it as well. 192 00:09:31,519 --> 00:09:34,180 And then you had other certain aspects of 193 00:09:34,180 --> 00:09:40,110 how to disguise, like how to wear a wig. 194 00:09:40,110 --> 00:09:43,629 Or how to stick a fake mustache. 195 00:09:43,629 --> 00:09:48,199 For privacy concerns, the images had to 196 00:09:48,199 --> 00:09:50,910 be pixeled. But I could see the faces 197 00:09:50,910 --> 00:09:53,800 while researching the archives. 198 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,690 Much funnier, actually. So, to stick fake 199 00:09:57,690 --> 00:10:01,360 mustaches... Then, again from the ČSSR, 200 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,220 you could also disguise cars. Like, 201 00:10:05,220 --> 00:10:07,290 you could draw something that's from a 202 00:10:07,290 --> 00:10:16,170 steel mill in the ČSSR. And then, in a way 203 00:10:16,170 --> 00:10:23,029 a disguised stroller, with a video camera. 204 00:10:23,029 --> 00:10:25,660 And that is actually a video camera from 205 00:10:25,660 --> 00:10:29,769 Japan, they imported this type of surveillance 206 00:10:29,769 --> 00:10:35,810 equipment quite frequently. Then you 207 00:10:35,810 --> 00:10:37,439 encounter other material, like how to 208 00:10:37,439 --> 00:10:44,240 transmit secret signals and how to transmit 209 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,899 codes, the codes are not known now, 210 00:10:46,899 --> 00:10:49,480 but still, the photos exist and they have 211 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,420 a strange beauty in them. 212 00:10:52,420 --> 00:10:56,310 And then, once you got your training, you 213 00:10:56,310 --> 00:10:59,920 had got to be taught how to arrest someone. 214 00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:01,620 And then you first knock the door, and 215 00:11:01,620 --> 00:11:06,399 then you arrest him and - notice the piece 216 00:11:06,399 --> 00:11:07,980 of cloth on the floor, cause they didn't 217 00:11:07,980 --> 00:11:11,160 want to ruin his white shirt - 218 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,550 and maybe he wants to fight, so you have 219 00:11:13,550 --> 00:11:21,560 to fight laughter So. But the Stasi always 220 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:25,910 wins. And again, the ČSSR they took things 221 00:11:25,910 --> 00:11:27,870 very seriously. Things they wanted to 222 00:11:27,870 --> 00:11:32,279 escalate much quicker. So you have to shoot 223 00:11:32,279 --> 00:11:35,000 people - booh - and again, 224 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:40,310 it quickly escalates, he has to be shot. 225 00:11:40,310 --> 00:11:44,550 And then, when you know that, you have to 226 00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:48,180 be taught how to follow people around. 227 00:11:48,180 --> 00:11:50,850 This - sometimes you find these very 228 00:11:50,850 --> 00:11:53,139 elaborate stories where you follow people 229 00:11:53,139 --> 00:11:55,230 around, this is just a very short exception. 230 00:11:55,230 --> 00:11:58,100 So, she is at the bakery, and then she goes 231 00:11:58,100 --> 00:12:00,459 to the doctor's office, which is already 232 00:12:00,459 --> 00:12:04,329 something the Stasi maybe shouldn't know. 233 00:12:04,329 --> 00:12:07,339 But still - and then she does a phone call 234 00:12:07,339 --> 00:12:09,350 And here she is smiling at the camera. 235 00:12:09,350 --> 00:12:11,189 Of course, the whole thing is staged for 236 00:12:11,189 --> 00:12:14,350 the colleagues. But this sometimes is 237 00:12:14,350 --> 00:12:17,310 very lengthy, you see this guy shopping, 238 00:12:17,310 --> 00:12:20,160 and shopping, and walking at Alexanderplatz, 239 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,249 and meeting an other guy... It's like a 240 00:12:22,249 --> 00:12:25,529 photo love story. *laughter* 241 00:12:25,529 --> 00:12:27,910 And then they take the car and he gets off 242 00:12:27,910 --> 00:12:29,670 the car in the middle of the woods, and 243 00:12:29,670 --> 00:12:32,040 then he walks and an other car comes. 244 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:33,819 And then they meet... 245 00:12:33,819 --> 00:12:36,430 Why do you take such pictures? 246 00:12:36,430 --> 00:12:38,269 What's the point of that? But still, 247 00:12:38,269 --> 00:12:39,910 that ends up at the archive. 248 00:12:39,910 --> 00:12:43,100 And is part of the training operation. 249 00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:46,389 Now, the training is done, 250 00:12:46,389 --> 00:12:51,779 This then is a real surveillance photograph, 251 00:12:51,779 --> 00:12:54,269 you see a black arrow, that's supposedly 252 00:12:54,269 --> 00:12:57,089 the person they were shadowing, and then 253 00:12:57,089 --> 00:12:58,779 you see, 'okay, we are not in the 254 00:12:58,779 --> 00:13:01,339 training manual anymore, but we are 255 00:13:01,339 --> 00:13:05,639 already a step ahead, and that's then the 256 00:13:05,639 --> 00:13:08,449 real material. He or she is followed 257 00:13:08,449 --> 00:13:13,129 around the country. Again, the Czech Republic, 258 00:13:13,129 --> 00:13:16,490 you have, like, ordinary citizens 259 00:13:16,490 --> 00:13:21,629 being shadowed entering a house. 260 00:13:21,629 --> 00:13:24,819 After the shadowing comes also the 261 00:13:24,819 --> 00:13:28,100 breach of privacy. And here we have the 262 00:13:28,100 --> 00:13:31,209 room of a teenager, which looks very 263 00:13:31,209 --> 00:13:34,649 innocent to us - but I am very positive 264 00:13:34,649 --> 00:13:37,620 that this - I guess it's a guy -, that he 265 00:13:37,620 --> 00:13:40,579 never entered university in East Germany. 266 00:13:40,579 --> 00:13:43,269 Due to the fact that they could prove that 267 00:13:43,269 --> 00:13:46,069 he was a fan of 'Wile E. Coyote' and the 268 00:13:46,069 --> 00:13:49,939 United States, or so they thought, they 269 00:13:49,939 --> 00:13:52,420 couldt prove. And they took such images 270 00:13:52,420 --> 00:13:55,509 as evidence for your thinking. Which is 271 00:13:55,509 --> 00:13:57,220 a problem of a surveillance operation, 272 00:13:57,220 --> 00:13:59,399 I would argue. And then here we have, 273 00:13:59,399 --> 00:14:01,559 - I don't know if you can see - there 274 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,439 might be the biggest Madonna fan of all of 275 00:14:04,439 --> 00:14:08,509 Communist Eastern Europe. laughter 276 00:14:08,509 --> 00:14:11,550 Same thing, probably would never be able 277 00:14:11,550 --> 00:14:16,870 to study law, or medicine, or something 278 00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:20,079 like that. And then you have, frequently, 279 00:14:20,079 --> 00:14:23,149 - sorry, cover your eyes maybe - frequently 280 00:14:23,149 --> 00:14:25,930 you have images such as this. And that was 281 00:14:25,930 --> 00:14:28,990 classified as 'Western Pornography', and 282 00:14:28,990 --> 00:14:32,220 the funny thing about this classification 283 00:14:32,220 --> 00:14:34,670 is, very often you find files, that read 284 00:14:34,670 --> 00:14:37,860 'Western Pornography', and the photographs 285 00:14:37,860 --> 00:14:40,509 are missing. *laughter* 286 00:14:40,509 --> 00:14:43,720 So, someone went to this appartment, 287 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,139 documented everything, archived it, and 288 00:14:46,139 --> 00:14:49,259 maybe the guy was persecuted, and when no 289 00:14:49,259 --> 00:14:51,559 one was looking, they took the pictures. 290 00:14:51,559 --> 00:14:56,069 Which then shows the absurd nature of the 291 00:14:56,069 --> 00:15:02,019 system. For me, this is a very... key image. 292 00:15:02,019 --> 00:15:05,490 And a set of images. But this is actually 293 00:15:05,490 --> 00:15:07,629 one of the images that brought me to 294 00:15:07,629 --> 00:15:11,629 contacting the Stasi Archive. I read about 295 00:15:11,629 --> 00:15:13,990 those images, this is a Polaroid, as you 296 00:15:13,990 --> 00:15:16,160 can see by the white background. 297 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,870 And, as a matter of fact, the Stasi 298 00:15:19,870 --> 00:15:21,949 frequently purchased Polaroid films or 299 00:15:21,949 --> 00:15:25,339 confiscated ones sent to East Germany. 300 00:15:25,339 --> 00:15:26,730 And the reason for that was, when they 301 00:15:26,730 --> 00:15:28,970 broke into peoples' homes, and you should 302 00:15:28,970 --> 00:15:31,480 never find out, the easiest thing was: You 303 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,319 break in, you look around, what's interesting, 304 00:15:34,319 --> 00:15:37,519 you take a Polaroid, and with the help of 305 00:15:37,519 --> 00:15:39,509 the Polaroid you are able to put everything 306 00:15:39,509 --> 00:15:41,899 back into the original position. 307 00:15:41,899 --> 00:15:45,990 So, this is an absolutely brutal image. 308 00:15:45,990 --> 00:15:48,269 Because it shows the deepest possible 309 00:15:48,269 --> 00:15:52,209 breach of privacy imaginable. 310 00:15:52,209 --> 00:15:54,920 And most people in fact never found out 311 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,559 their apartment was searched, and that was 312 00:15:57,559 --> 00:16:00,240 absolutely illegal, even in East Germany. 313 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,220 And, so it was very revealing last year, 314 00:16:03,220 --> 00:16:04,779 a German TV Station thought it was a clever 315 00:16:04,779 --> 00:16:06,949 idea to bring me, hook me up with a 316 00:16:06,949 --> 00:16:10,809 former Stasi general. And he - And I told 317 00:16:10,809 --> 00:16:13,170 him about the Polaroids. And he said: 318 00:16:13,170 --> 00:16:16,709 "Yeah, but, eh, ähm, please, keep in mind, 319 00:16:16,709 --> 00:16:19,990 I've, I never broke into peoples' apartments." 320 00:16:19,990 --> 00:16:22,600 And I said: "Yeah, well, did you order it?" 321 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,740 "Yes I ordered it, but I never broke 322 00:16:24,740 --> 00:16:26,089 into peoples' houses!" 323 00:16:26,089 --> 00:16:29,300 And I thought, what stupid excuse is that? 324 00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:31,009 Who then is responsible? Because normally 325 00:16:31,009 --> 00:16:33,939 the excuse is always, oh, I was ordered to. 326 00:16:33,939 --> 00:16:35,970 And his excuse was, yeah, I just ordered 327 00:16:35,970 --> 00:16:37,709 them, but I didn't really, why would 328 00:16:37,709 --> 00:16:40,889 they do it? *gasping* I just ordered it... 329 00:16:40,889 --> 00:16:45,619 Was not my intention... So that really was 330 00:16:45,619 --> 00:16:47,470 revealing to me, like, the state of mind 331 00:16:47,470 --> 00:16:51,519 within such a system. So, you have 332 00:16:51,519 --> 00:16:54,059 folders and folders and folders of those 333 00:16:54,059 --> 00:16:56,259 Polaroids. And when they found something 334 00:16:56,259 --> 00:16:58,860 incriminating, they might have returned 335 00:16:58,860 --> 00:17:01,069 a few days later with the police and a 336 00:17:01,069 --> 00:17:02,639 search warrant. Because they needed a 337 00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:05,148 search warrant, even in East Germany. 338 00:17:05,148 --> 00:17:10,839 So, and now we realise, even though it looks 339 00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:13,148 funny, the way they disguise themselves, 340 00:17:13,148 --> 00:17:15,648 it's meant seriously. And it's a terrible, 341 00:17:15,648 --> 00:17:18,140 brutal system. Which you also see in these 342 00:17:18,140 --> 00:17:20,220 images from the ČSSR, where the people 343 00:17:20,220 --> 00:17:24,059 are forced to stage their own attempt of 344 00:17:24,059 --> 00:17:26,619 fleeing the country. So they were made 345 00:17:26,619 --> 00:17:30,000 to stage the thing they were arrested for. 346 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,090 Even a young child was made to reenact 347 00:17:34,090 --> 00:17:36,350 their failed attempt to flee the country, 348 00:17:36,350 --> 00:17:37,860 and this is brutal. 349 00:17:37,860 --> 00:17:42,630 And, so, sometimes you find images that 350 00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:45,980 are completely out of any category. 351 00:17:45,980 --> 00:17:47,130 *laughter* 352 00:17:47,130 --> 00:17:50,970 Like a guinea pig - I told you earlier - to 353 00:17:50,970 --> 00:17:53,970 think back - remember the post box with 354 00:17:53,970 --> 00:17:57,590 the old lady. That's an image of one of 355 00:17:57,590 --> 00:18:02,610 those files. So you have an image of 356 00:18:02,610 --> 00:18:04,720 a post box, you see it, taken from a high 357 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,029 angle. And, maybe, out of a private apartment. 358 00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:11,860 And my, and then, you have this shot after 359 00:18:11,860 --> 00:18:14,149 shot after shot. And two pictures of 360 00:18:14,149 --> 00:18:15,830 this guinea pig. 361 00:18:15,830 --> 00:18:17,029 And then the surveillance operation 362 00:18:17,029 --> 00:18:20,610 continues. And what I read out of that is 363 00:18:20,610 --> 00:18:22,539 that he was in a private apartment, and 364 00:18:22,539 --> 00:18:27,059 was bored - and there ran this guinea pig. 365 00:18:27,059 --> 00:18:29,850 And he lies flat on the ground, 366 00:18:29,850 --> 00:18:32,320 takes two shots, and then continues the 367 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,390 surveillance operation. Knowing, that the 368 00:18:35,390 --> 00:18:38,779 material is going to end up at the archive. 369 00:18:38,779 --> 00:18:41,960 And gets its archive number. 370 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:46,549 That's German bureaucracy, I guess. 371 00:18:46,549 --> 00:18:49,190 Very revealing - so these guys, that's 372 00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:52,250 actually a British spy, there were some 373 00:18:52,250 --> 00:18:56,210 officially registered Western spies within 374 00:18:56,210 --> 00:18:58,250 East Germany. The Russians had the same 375 00:18:58,250 --> 00:19:01,309 thing for West Germany. And the Stasi's 376 00:19:01,309 --> 00:19:04,710 job was to follow them and document what 377 00:19:04,710 --> 00:19:06,370 they were doing. They couldn't do anything 378 00:19:06,370 --> 00:19:09,299 to them, they could only document it. 379 00:19:09,299 --> 00:19:11,870 And you find many of these images. 380 00:19:11,870 --> 00:19:13,820 A spy taking a picture of a spy, in an 381 00:19:13,820 --> 00:19:17,830 endless circle of surveillance. *laughter* 382 00:19:17,830 --> 00:19:19,860 And what's very revealing is the fact 383 00:19:19,860 --> 00:19:23,580 that I tried to gain access to the, to 384 00:19:23,580 --> 00:19:27,529 their material - it's still classified. 385 00:19:27,529 --> 00:19:28,409 *laughter* 386 00:19:28,409 --> 00:19:31,240 I am very positive I know what the images 387 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,700 show: It's very much the same thing. 388 00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:34,630 *laughter* 389 00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:38,500 But, so, I tried to understand what 390 00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:41,230 these people are thinking. But, it turns out, 391 00:19:41,230 --> 00:19:42,840 even though they were fighting each other, 392 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,190 they seemed to share a very common 393 00:19:45,190 --> 00:19:46,570 state of mind. 394 00:19:46,570 --> 00:19:50,519 But, so, that looks like the end point 395 00:19:50,519 --> 00:19:51,480 of surveillance. 396 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,260 No, it's not. 397 00:19:53,260 --> 00:19:57,380 It's one step further: Stasi agents, 398 00:19:57,380 --> 00:20:01,090 watching Stasi agents watching other people. 399 00:20:01,090 --> 00:20:05,559 That's a triangle of surveillance, ja. 400 00:20:05,559 --> 00:20:08,350 Common as well, never be sure about 401 00:20:08,350 --> 00:20:11,149 your colleagues, they could be up to something. 402 00:20:11,149 --> 00:20:14,620 So, better spy on them as well. 403 00:20:14,620 --> 00:20:18,240 But then, I present you, the absolute 404 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,140 high point and end point of surveillance: 405 00:20:21,140 --> 00:20:23,800 Which is the surveillance selfie. 406 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:30,180 *laughter and applause* 407 00:20:33,950 --> 00:20:36,960 I give you another one. 408 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,899 And they knew it was going to end up at 409 00:20:40,899 --> 00:20:42,809 the archive. So they are spying on 410 00:20:42,809 --> 00:20:44,990 themselves, while spying on others, while 411 00:20:44,990 --> 00:20:46,070 they are spying on themselves. 412 00:20:46,070 --> 00:20:49,789 So, it's this: it's almost meditative. 413 00:20:49,789 --> 00:20:53,330 And now, who are these people? 414 00:20:53,330 --> 00:20:55,580 Now we are really at the internal view. 415 00:20:55,580 --> 00:20:59,250 The Stasi looks at itself. Here is a 416 00:20:59,250 --> 00:21:01,370 group photo. Remember this guy - 417 00:21:01,370 --> 00:21:03,309 we encounter him later. 418 00:21:03,309 --> 00:21:07,990 That happens to be the phone surveillance unit. 419 00:21:07,990 --> 00:21:09,940 Highest ranking officials here, 420 00:21:09,940 --> 00:21:12,429 that's the boss of the whole bunch. 421 00:21:12,429 --> 00:21:15,919 And, of course, the Stasi, Eastern Europe... 422 00:21:15,919 --> 00:21:18,559 they like their medals. And then an 423 00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:23,700 award ceremony. Flowers, medal, piece of paper. 424 00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:24,760 And there is the guy from the phone 425 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,919 surveillance unit, again, so, he gets 426 00:21:27,919 --> 00:21:33,549 really shabby flowers. And, piece of paper. 427 00:21:33,549 --> 00:21:37,510 That's odd: see this, the wax seal? And, 428 00:21:37,510 --> 00:21:40,100 it's burnt at the side? 429 00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:44,330 Because: He was knighted. 430 00:21:44,330 --> 00:21:48,659 A knight of the phone surveillance unit. 431 00:21:48,659 --> 00:21:54,590 *timid laughter, applause* 432 00:21:54,590 --> 00:21:57,700 See this, to the Non-Germans here: 433 00:21:57,700 --> 00:22:01,669 That Section Symbol stands for the Code of Law, 434 00:22:01,669 --> 00:22:05,380 this isn't widely used outside Germany, 435 00:22:05,380 --> 00:22:08,519 He knew that they were breaking the law, 436 00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:10,200 and they're mocking it. 437 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,440 They're mocking it with this ceremony. 438 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:14,919 So now, here, you are the knight 439 00:22:14,919 --> 00:22:16,720 of the phone surveillance unit. 440 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,130 Congratulations. Haha, what a good joke. 441 00:22:20,130 --> 00:22:21,990 Another set of images, which is very 442 00:22:21,990 --> 00:22:27,179 revealing, is this: 443 00:22:27,179 --> 00:22:30,010 Strange finding in the Stasi archive. 444 00:22:30,010 --> 00:22:32,159 A strange combination, see. The bishop 445 00:22:32,159 --> 00:22:35,980 and a soccer player, and back there, 446 00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:39,929 with the blue shirt, that's a Party youth 447 00:22:39,929 --> 00:22:44,970 member. And see the ballerina there? 448 00:22:44,970 --> 00:22:49,460 Strange. The guy in the suit: It's his 449 00:22:49,460 --> 00:22:51,610 birthday. And he is the boss of them. 450 00:22:51,610 --> 00:22:56,419 Theses are all highest ranking Stasi officials. 451 00:22:56,419 --> 00:22:58,909 And they're surprising him with a birthday party. 452 00:22:58,909 --> 00:23:00,890 And the surprise is to dress up as 453 00:23:00,890 --> 00:23:05,000 those people you put under surveillance. 454 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:10,210 So, see, Party Youth, soccer player, 455 00:23:10,210 --> 00:23:13,409 another soccer player, the ballerina. 456 00:23:13,409 --> 00:23:16,850 Beautiful, very beautiful. 457 00:23:16,850 --> 00:23:18,200 Soccer fan, of course you have to put 458 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,490 them under surveillance. A doctor! 459 00:23:20,490 --> 00:23:24,200 Of course, who cares about the right 460 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,710 to confidentiality of doctors. A judge. 461 00:23:27,710 --> 00:23:32,559 Of course, you have to put that judge under surveillance. 462 00:23:32,559 --> 00:23:37,289 And that is a disguise, a dress-up, 463 00:23:37,289 --> 00:23:40,909 hardly to be understood outside Germany. 464 00:23:40,909 --> 00:23:45,399 He's dressed up as a peace activist. 465 00:23:45,399 --> 00:23:48,950 He wears this 'Swords to ploughshares' 466 00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:50,299 ("Schwerter zu Pflugscharen') sticker 467 00:23:50,299 --> 00:23:53,330 on his head, and some other peace stickers 468 00:23:53,330 --> 00:23:56,419 there, and he is very proud of himself. 469 00:23:56,419 --> 00:24:01,080 Why is that? Because it was such a successful 470 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,960 costume... 471 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,070 I think: 'Where did the get the costume from?' 472 00:24:07,070 --> 00:24:10,340 The easiest thing, for someone 473 00:24:10,340 --> 00:24:12,250 like him, would be to take it from 474 00:24:12,250 --> 00:24:14,649 somebody he put in jail. 475 00:24:14,649 --> 00:24:16,409 Because you could at least lose access 476 00:24:16,409 --> 00:24:19,070 to university for wearing one of these stickers. 477 00:24:19,070 --> 00:24:21,169 At least. Or you could serve some, short, 478 00:24:21,169 --> 00:24:24,240 time, but some time in jail. 479 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,799 You could lose access to good housing and 480 00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:30,320 everything. Why is he able to mock it? 481 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,049 Because he is the one who would decide 482 00:24:32,049 --> 00:24:35,299 whether or not you lose access... 483 00:24:35,299 --> 00:24:38,049 And this is the terrible thing about these images. 484 00:24:38,049 --> 00:24:40,710 They are very revealing. 485 00:24:40,710 --> 00:24:47,659 --I am very fast...-- 486 00:24:47,659 --> 00:24:52,470 So, these images are now, what, 487 00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:55,880 25, 30, years old. Why do I think they 488 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,110 are still relevant today? 489 00:24:59,110 --> 00:25:01,380 It's because of something like this: 490 00:25:01,380 --> 00:25:03,809 there was a short period, after 491 00:25:03,809 --> 00:25:05,820 the fall of the Berlin Wall, so the 492 00:25:05,820 --> 00:25:11,360 Wall fell in November '89, and the Stasi 493 00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:14,230 wasn't desolved until January. So there 494 00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:15,760 was a very short period of time 495 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,389 where the Stasi could actually try to 496 00:25:17,389 --> 00:25:20,659 destroy material. They managed to do 497 00:25:20,659 --> 00:25:23,700 destroy a huge bunch of material. 498 00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:29,500 Not very important sets - except for 499 00:25:29,500 --> 00:25:33,620 espionage, that's almost gone. 500 00:25:33,620 --> 00:25:36,340 But if it would have been up to them, 501 00:25:36,340 --> 00:25:39,929 that would have been the fate of all these images. 502 00:25:39,929 --> 00:25:42,059 Destruction. 503 00:25:42,059 --> 00:25:43,679 We would have had never been able to look 504 00:25:43,679 --> 00:25:47,690 at these images. And, 505 00:25:47,690 --> 00:25:49,220 even though we don't know what these images 506 00:25:49,220 --> 00:25:51,860 stand for - that's a group of gay men - 507 00:25:51,860 --> 00:25:54,779 and they infiltrated it and it was 508 00:25:54,779 --> 00:25:56,350 compromising to one of their colleagues 509 00:25:56,350 --> 00:25:58,490 that they infiltrated it, they did things 510 00:25:58,490 --> 00:26:03,480 like that. But, they tried to destroy it. 511 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,409 So, 25 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, 512 00:26:06,409 --> 00:26:09,360 even more now, why do I 513 00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:11,620 still think this material is really relevant? 514 00:26:11,620 --> 00:26:13,950 I am going to show you something 515 00:26:13,950 --> 00:26:17,630 that's even more special and more rare, 516 00:26:17,630 --> 00:26:20,549 than the material I showed you just now. 517 00:26:20,549 --> 00:26:23,019 It's this: 518 00:26:23,019 --> 00:26:24,820 Over the course of approximately a year 519 00:26:24,820 --> 00:26:28,730 I tried to convince the BND to grant me 520 00:26:28,730 --> 00:26:31,169 access to their material. Which would 521 00:26:31,169 --> 00:26:33,220 be amazing because in Germany we have 522 00:26:33,220 --> 00:26:36,120 this one society with the two 523 00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:38,760 opposing systems. So the view on the 524 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,980 cold war would be absolutely astonishing 525 00:26:42,980 --> 00:26:45,299 if we would be able to look at all 526 00:26:45,299 --> 00:26:47,080 the material. 527 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,250 And, after a year, I got the call, 528 00:26:50,250 --> 00:26:51,730 and they told me: "yes, we have something 529 00:26:51,730 --> 00:26:52,620 for you, come over." 530 00:26:52,620 --> 00:26:56,220 There was actually, they have a small, 531 00:26:56,220 --> 00:26:57,669 relatively small section in Berlin. 532 00:26:57,669 --> 00:26:59,919 So I went there with my Scanner and they 533 00:26:59,919 --> 00:27:01,919 gave me the - I would call them - 534 00:27:01,919 --> 00:27:05,909 14 most boring pictures of 535 00:27:05,909 --> 00:27:09,519 the BND history. 536 00:27:09,519 --> 00:27:12,510 It's a match box. 537 00:27:12,510 --> 00:27:14,510 This... 538 00:27:14,510 --> 00:27:15,979 and that. 539 00:27:15,979 --> 00:27:18,070 And, when I looked at these images, 540 00:27:18,070 --> 00:27:19,799 I was like, 'are you kidding me?' 541 00:27:19,799 --> 00:27:21,309 What do they show? 542 00:27:21,309 --> 00:27:23,389 And this guy was very serious and told me: 543 00:27:23,389 --> 00:27:24,880 "Unfortunately I can't tell you because 544 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,759 the information is still classified." 545 00:27:28,759 --> 00:27:31,850 *laughter* 546 00:27:31,850 --> 00:27:37,309 But then, he told me, as far as 547 00:27:37,309 --> 00:27:39,509 he knows, these are the only images 548 00:27:39,509 --> 00:27:41,450 they ever released. 549 00:27:41,450 --> 00:27:45,289 And, yeah, toothpaste. 550 00:27:45,289 --> 00:27:48,000 There´s a huge problem I have 551 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,070 with this, of course. 552 00:27:51,070 --> 00:27:53,970 Not with this young lady in particular, 553 00:27:53,970 --> 00:27:56,600 but in general with these images. 554 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,779 They can decide which images to show. 555 00:28:00,779 --> 00:28:03,880 And one of the guys I was in contact with told me: 556 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,149 "Of course we have these disguise pictures... 557 00:28:06,149 --> 00:28:08,830 and dress up, and things like that." 558 00:28:08,830 --> 00:28:12,200 But, keep in mind, even though back then 559 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,710 he might have been the lowest in the hierarchy. 560 00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:17,600 He might be the head of the department now. 561 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,700 Or the one who brought in the guy who is now 562 00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:22,480 the head of the department. 563 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,070 Of course it's not in their interest 564 00:28:25,070 --> 00:28:28,179 for these images to be released. 565 00:28:28,179 --> 00:28:32,159 And then I think, 'but it's in my interest' 566 00:28:32,159 --> 00:28:35,720 And in our interest, to decide, what images 567 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,559 are worth looking at or not. 568 00:28:38,559 --> 00:28:39,990 And there is another problem with images 569 00:28:39,990 --> 00:28:45,070 like this. We have almost nothing that is 570 00:28:45,070 --> 00:28:47,179 accessible from the Western archives. 571 00:28:47,179 --> 00:28:50,950 This is rare, this is very special. 572 00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:55,120 Looks like shit, but it's very special. 573 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,049 But we have a trove from the Eastern archives. 574 00:28:59,049 --> 00:29:02,820 And there is always, like the Merkel, and like, everyone -- 575 00:29:02,820 --> 00:29:07,820 when one of the Eastern countries decides, 576 00:29:07,820 --> 00:29:13,299 'maybe we should limit access to our former Stalinist archive...' 577 00:29:13,299 --> 00:29:15,460 they say 'no, don't do that!!' 578 00:29:15,460 --> 00:29:18,049 'it must be open' - but what happens when we 579 00:29:18,049 --> 00:29:20,580 have access to just one side? 580 00:29:20,580 --> 00:29:23,779 And see all the terrible things they are doing? 581 00:29:23,779 --> 00:29:26,090 And have no access to the other side? 582 00:29:26,090 --> 00:29:29,289 I am not saying that the BND did the same terrible things 583 00:29:29,289 --> 00:29:32,269 the Stasi did. But the BND was certainly breaking 584 00:29:32,269 --> 00:29:34,659 our laws as well... 585 00:29:34,659 --> 00:29:37,299 And so, but it does look more innnocent, 586 00:29:37,299 --> 00:29:39,350 because we only know, have access to a very 587 00:29:39,350 --> 00:29:41,730 terrible looking archive. 588 00:29:41,730 --> 00:29:43,559 And if we look to West Germany, 589 00:29:43,559 --> 00:29:45,370 it's like: 'Nothing there.' 590 00:29:45,370 --> 00:29:47,190 Must be fine... 591 00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:49,250 And that is a terrible thing. 592 00:29:49,250 --> 00:29:52,960 There is a lot wrong with that. 593 00:29:52,960 --> 00:30:03,599 -- I am almost at the end, I was rushing through...sorry -- 594 00:30:03,599 --> 00:30:10,649 -- But…I can show you two…well -- 595 00:30:10,649 --> 00:30:13,960 Just because I was too quick: from the Czech archive, 596 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:18,000 two videos. audio isn't important. 597 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,899 Oh, sorry, maybe it's not going to work. 598 00:30:21,899 --> 00:30:24,820 It seems things escalated much quicker. 599 00:30:24,820 --> 00:30:29,159 In the ČSSR... than in ... Sorry... 600 00:30:29,159 --> 00:30:44,490 Live in the ČSSR must have been very dangerous. 601 00:30:44,490 --> 00:31:00,490 These weapons, everywhere... 602 00:31:00,490 --> 00:31:09,260 *soft, pacy music* 603 00:31:21,210 --> 00:31:23,419 But the best thing comes now: 604 00:31:23,419 --> 00:31:28,800 *laughter* 605 00:31:35,620 --> 00:31:42,020 Who would carry something like that, there. 606 00:31:42,020 --> 00:31:50,629 *applause* 607 00:31:50,629 --> 00:31:54,250 And just, if you wonder - that's a very long film - 608 00:31:54,250 --> 00:31:56,840 that's just a short part of it. 609 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,460 If you are ever attacked by someone with a chair... 610 00:32:03,060 --> 00:32:05,740 [in German] Ne, das ist nicht wichtig. 611 00:32:05,740 --> 00:32:09,330 Audio ist ganz furchtbar. 612 00:32:09,330 --> 00:32:11,879 That's like, six or seven times he shows that. 613 00:32:11,879 --> 00:32:13,539 And now he shows it again. 614 00:32:13,539 --> 00:32:15,990 And then it is going to be used, but look 615 00:32:15,990 --> 00:32:19,799 closely how it is used, the technique they just learned. 616 00:32:19,799 --> 00:32:26,559 Okay, do this the next time you are attacked by someone with a chair. 617 00:32:26,559 --> 00:32:31,169 So, he is going to be attacked by someone with a chair, 618 00:32:31,169 --> 00:32:35,330 watch closely, he implements it quite properly. 619 00:32:35,330 --> 00:32:37,809 *laughter* 620 00:32:37,809 --> 00:32:41,759 Well, he didn't really. 621 00:32:41,759 --> 00:32:49,610 And, things always, in this long film, always escalate very quickly. 622 00:32:49,610 --> 00:32:55,779 And here are two very long shots, 623 00:32:55,779 --> 00:32:59,039 and you are supposed to spot them, that are 624 00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:01,229 unnecessarily long... 625 00:33:05,349 --> 00:33:09,919 *laughter* 626 00:33:09,919 --> 00:33:14,169 So, of course they find the black guy smuggling. 627 00:33:14,169 --> 00:33:16,440 And he explains to him now, in English: 628 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:21,720 'Do you have more?' And he says no, no. 629 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,169 And still, the porn is in the shot. 630 00:33:25,169 --> 00:33:26,950 And then he tells him, yea, it's going to be 631 00:33:26,950 --> 00:33:29,389 very serious if you don't confess now. 632 00:33:29,389 --> 00:33:31,210 And the black guy says. no, I don't have anything 633 00:33:31,210 --> 00:33:32,749 to confess... 634 00:33:32,749 --> 00:33:36,259 And now the guy on the left gets suspicious. 635 00:33:36,259 --> 00:33:40,559 Look at him. 636 00:33:40,559 --> 00:33:44,909 Very suspicious, this black young man. 637 00:33:44,909 --> 00:33:52,040 He doesn't want to sign his confession. 638 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,659 He gets suspicious, too. 639 00:33:58,659 --> 00:34:02,850 Very, very, very suspicious. 640 00:34:02,850 --> 00:34:07,000 And, fortunately, the camera man made the slight move to the left... 641 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,159 Not to zoom in on the penis [sic] 642 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:10,650 No, no, he doesn't have anything. 643 00:34:10,650 --> 00:34:14,610 But it turns out, he has something. 644 00:34:14,610 --> 00:34:18,540 Because he's black and suspicious looking. 645 00:34:18,540 --> 00:34:20,659 See. 646 00:34:20,659 --> 00:34:27,050 Oh, he's moving his arm. 647 00:34:40,630 --> 00:34:43,650 *laughter* 648 00:34:51,970 --> 00:34:55,090 So, it turns out his arm is not broken. 649 00:34:55,090 --> 00:35:00,850 Sorry, that was somewhat long, but I rushed through before. 650 00:35:00,850 --> 00:35:04,390 And for some reason, he hides batteries 651 00:35:04,390 --> 00:35:08,380 in his cast. 652 00:35:08,380 --> 00:35:14,130 *applause* 653 00:35:16,250 --> 00:35:23,080 So, he could bring in the watches, but he'd better hide the batteries. 654 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,560 Because that is, whoo.... 655 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,580 So - any questions? 656 00:35:30,580 --> 00:35:43,430 *applause* 657 00:35:45,030 --> 00:35:46,510 Herald Angel: thank you 658 00:35:46,510 --> 00:35:49,140 Simon: I hope you got what you paid for... 659 00:35:49,140 --> 00:35:49,970 *laughter* 660 00:35:49,970 --> 00:35:55,930 Herald: Maybe before we start Q&A, everybody who wants to leave, leave now. 661 00:35:55,930 --> 00:35:57,700 Simon: oh wow. 662 00:35:57,700 --> 00:36:01,130 Herald: We are going to take one minute so you can leave 663 00:36:01,130 --> 00:36:07,820 and the others who want to stay have it quiet for the Q&A 664 00:36:30,190 --> 00:36:34,800 And remember to use the rating system. 665 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:39,860 Simon: Oh, I brought post cards, if you want some. 666 00:36:39,860 --> 00:36:44,640 Because we have to make fun of them as much as we can 667 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:49,020 *applause* 668 00:36:49,020 --> 00:36:54,900 They're all the same motive, but take as many as you want, if you want any. 669 00:37:01,610 --> 00:37:03,870 Herald: Thank you 670 00:37:09,020 --> 00:37:11,050 *somenone too quietly to be understood* 671 00:37:11,050 --> 00:37:14,240 Simon: Uh, with the microphone, I guess 672 00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:20,280 Herald: There are two microphones for Q&A, no, four even, if you need them. 673 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,830 And we have questions from the internet. 674 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,010 Five seconds. 675 00:37:36,590 --> 00:37:40,320 Okay. So, we will start with you! 676 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:46,440 Q: Just a short question, first, thanks for the wonderful talk. 677 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,610 It was very very interesting. 678 00:37:49,610 --> 00:37:51,640 Can you give us the title of your book, please? 679 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,530 Simon: Oh, it's pretty much top if you google my name, 680 00:37:55,530 --> 00:38:00,000 it's available in your local book store, or, if you want, Amazon. 681 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,380 It's still available, but there are not that many 682 00:38:03,380 --> 00:38:07,210 copies left, *starts acting* so you should all get it as soon as possible... *laughter* 683 00:38:07,210 --> 00:38:09,610 It's just 'Top Secret' and Simon Menner... 684 00:38:09,610 --> 00:38:14,190 Or just Menner, my family doesn't write that many books... *more laughter* 685 00:38:15,380 --> 00:38:18,520 Herald: Thank you, over here… 686 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:25,960 Q: Would you be so kind to go back to the photo with Coyote and the American flag? 687 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:31,610 Because I thought I saw Yugoslav air transport logo on the ... 688 00:38:31,610 --> 00:38:34,110 yes, YAT, there you see it. 689 00:38:34,110 --> 00:38:36,070 Simon: Oh yea, here. 690 00:38:36,070 --> 00:38:40,130 Q: He flew with, now it's called Air Serbia... 691 00:38:40,130 --> 00:38:42,150 Simon: That must have been the reason. 692 00:38:42,150 --> 00:38:45,350 Q: Yes, it must have, I just wanted to check... 693 00:38:45,350 --> 00:38:47,770 Simon: Sure, thanks! 694 00:38:47,770 --> 00:38:49,770 applause 695 00:38:49,770 --> 00:38:53,000 Herald: We have a question from the internet... 696 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,610 Signal Angel: Yes, frankie2 is asking, how does this 697 00:38:57,610 --> 00:39:00,140 compare to today's surveillance? 698 00:39:00,140 --> 00:39:04,610 Simon: The problem is, in a way, that is a 699 00:39:04,610 --> 00:39:08,310 treasure trove, but it's a very weird one. 700 00:39:08,310 --> 00:39:13,040 If I could decide, freely choose, what material to look at, 701 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,690 I would definitely look at, try to look at, the 702 00:39:15,690 --> 00:39:17,670 last two weeks of NSA's surveillance. 703 00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:20,290 Like we all would. 704 00:39:20,290 --> 00:39:26,090 But, unfortunately, this is as close as we can get this kind of material. 705 00:39:26,090 --> 00:39:33,800 But keep in mind, back in it's days the Stasi was at least as sophisticated as the BND. 706 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,430 In fact, they were more advanced in the technology they used. 707 00:39:38,430 --> 00:39:42,360 And the Stasi would definitely use the same 708 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:47,210 techniques BND and CIA and everyone else uses today. 709 00:39:47,210 --> 00:39:52,320 They would try to listen in on our phone conversations. 710 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:57,960 That might not be the right material to look at from a technological point of view. 711 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,530 But I think this material is very interesting and important 712 00:40:01,530 --> 00:40:03,630 if you want to find out something about their 713 00:40:03,630 --> 00:40:08,880 state of mind. Which is, absurd. And keep in mind, 714 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,110 the excuse you hear from the NSA, 715 00:40:12,110 --> 00:40:16,170 they just want to protect the law, and that is why they break the law, 716 00:40:16,170 --> 00:40:20,210 that's an excuse you regularly find with the Stasi as well. 717 00:40:20,210 --> 00:40:24,940 And you find parallels, and that's why it's very important to look at this material. 718 00:40:24,940 --> 00:40:28,120 Even though it's very old. 719 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,050 And back then, the whole archive, consists out 720 00:40:31,050 --> 00:40:33,570 of somewhere between one and two million photographs. 721 00:40:33,570 --> 00:40:38,870 Which is absurdly little, if you think that the system 722 00:40:38,870 --> 00:40:40,890 was in operation for forty years. 723 00:40:40,890 --> 00:40:43,550 That's fifty thousand picture a year. 724 00:40:43,550 --> 00:40:47,010 They had 85 thousand agents. 725 00:40:47,010 --> 00:40:48,800 From today's standards, that's nothing. 726 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,790 Today, they would be far more sophisticated I guess. 727 00:40:51,790 --> 00:40:56,840 Herald: Thank you, we have a question over there, is that a question, yes. 728 00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,150 Q: Firstly, thank you for your talk. 729 00:41:00,150 --> 00:41:04,510 So, you showed that some of that archive had been 730 00:41:04,510 --> 00:41:07,530 destroyed or attempts had been made. 731 00:41:07,530 --> 00:41:12,680 But there was still much to look through. 732 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,300 What happens in future generations, 733 00:41:16,300 --> 00:41:18,560 given that now surveillance is done all digitally, 734 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:25,900 you said the Stasi had a number of weeks from when the wall fell, 735 00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:28,900 and they had time to destroy things, 736 00:41:28,900 --> 00:41:32,510 given now how quickly and easy it is to erase digital 737 00:41:32,510 --> 00:41:36,510 information, what do you say to people coming after you? 738 00:41:36,510 --> 00:41:39,390 Future generations, who might want to find similar things 739 00:41:39,390 --> 00:41:43,360 in dissolved surveillance operations. Are they completely stuffed? 740 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,320 Simon: Unless there is going to be a revolution, 741 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,540 they are not going to be able to look at anything. 742 00:41:47,540 --> 00:41:49,430 That would be my guess. 743 00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:54,050 Because you need this abrupt shift in the whole system, 744 00:41:54,050 --> 00:41:58,480 that pretty much decapitates this operation. And so, 745 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,070 they lost everything, and now it is frozen in time. 746 00:42:02,070 --> 00:42:04,200 So, the guy at the BND told me: 747 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,320 "It's up to us to decide what we reveal and what not, because we have a veto." 748 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,540 Of course, nothing is then revealed. 749 00:42:11,540 --> 00:42:12,870 Ever. 750 00:42:12,870 --> 00:42:18,110 So, as long as this stays the policy, and it is the policy currently everywhere, 751 00:42:18,110 --> 00:42:20,870 from what I understand, 752 00:42:20,870 --> 00:42:23,880 you are not going to be able to look at anything. 753 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,220 I am not very optimistic in that respect. 754 00:42:30,620 --> 00:42:35,100 Next Question: How do you decide 755 00:42:35,100 --> 00:42:39,040 what faces to anonymise, and which not? 756 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:45,040 Simon: Besides the Czech Republic archive… …with the Czech Images I did it. 757 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:50,440 With those images you can do anything and whatever you want, and that's weird. 758 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,150 And terrible, in a way. 759 00:42:52,150 --> 00:42:54,940 With the Stasi images, the archive had to decide. 760 00:42:54,940 --> 00:43:00,020 And they decided on the basis that once you work for, 761 00:43:00,020 --> 00:43:07,080 in an official position, in times of historical importance, 762 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,360 - like that - you lose your privacy rights. 763 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,110 You don't share the same privacy rights. 764 00:43:12,110 --> 00:43:15,500 So, once we could find written evidence 765 00:43:15,500 --> 00:43:21,860 that a person shown in the image was working for the Stasi, 766 00:43:21,860 --> 00:43:24,930 like him or her, 767 00:43:24,930 --> 00:43:27,170 they lost their right of privacy. 768 00:43:27,170 --> 00:43:30,150 If the slightest doubt remained, it had to be pixeled. 769 00:43:30,150 --> 00:43:31,839 So it wasn't done by me. 770 00:43:31,839 --> 00:43:37,780 German privacy rights are very strict. 771 00:43:37,780 --> 00:43:43,830 Next Questioner: You said, when you talked about surveillance, 772 00:43:43,830 --> 00:43:49,530 watching each other, that this would be the highest state of surveillance. 773 00:43:49,530 --> 00:43:53,150 But don't you think that now there is a much higher state, 774 00:43:53,150 --> 00:43:55,970 and also before things were much more clear, 775 00:43:55,970 --> 00:43:57,770 everybody knew that there was a regime 776 00:43:57,770 --> 00:44:00,290 trying to stay in power and trying to put down everybody. 777 00:44:00,290 --> 00:44:05,830 But now, in a situation where they don't even have to break the law, 778 00:44:05,830 --> 00:44:08,660 they just make it legal to surveil, like we can see in France, 779 00:44:08,660 --> 00:44:11,610 now with the law on intelligence, 780 00:44:11,610 --> 00:44:14,550 that passed just after the Charlie murders, 781 00:44:14,550 --> 00:44:16,460 and now we got the murders again, 782 00:44:16,460 --> 00:44:18,360 and you have people who have 783 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:19,800 to stay in their home, because 784 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:21,210 the intelligence has said that 785 00:44:21,210 --> 00:44:22,770 they might protest, and they don't have 786 00:44:22,770 --> 00:44:26,120 to go through a judge, actually making it legal. 787 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:32,280 And we are at a stage were people surveil each other. 788 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:37,100 Simon: That's Facebook today. - Yes, somehow. 789 00:44:37,100 --> 00:44:40,400 *applause* 790 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,420 And the general problem with survellance operations 791 00:44:43,420 --> 00:44:48,350 - I would argue - and I hope someone here is from the BND and they come forward 792 00:44:48,350 --> 00:44:52,100 and I give a talk to them, because I would really like to find out. 793 00:44:52,100 --> 00:44:57,227 So please, my email was there - 794 00:44:57,227 --> 00:45:00,980 I would argue, is that this type of surveillance can not work. 795 00:45:00,980 --> 00:45:04,340 What you are trying to find proof for 796 00:45:04,340 --> 00:45:08,810 is a state of mind, is thoughts, is not something you did, 797 00:45:08,810 --> 00:45:13,970 but some things you think about, or you might wanna do. 798 00:45:13,970 --> 00:45:16,610 And photography - I am a photographer - 799 00:45:16,610 --> 00:45:18,500 I know how bad photography is. 800 00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:20,920 You were looking at images of landscapes, 801 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:25,210 where no sniper is visible, and each one of you saw it. 802 00:45:25,210 --> 00:45:29,120 That's how bad photography is as evidence. 803 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,240 And this can be proof for everything. And nothing. 804 00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:36,270 Q: They don't need photography now. 805 00:45:36,270 --> 00:45:37,470 S: No, they use it. 806 00:45:37,470 --> 00:45:40,010 Q: They just bring the paper to the prefect police, 807 00:45:40,010 --> 00:45:42,290 and he says 'okay, they're dangerous', and tells 808 00:45:42,290 --> 00:45:43,800 them they have to stay at home. 809 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:48,630 S: Ja, but they need proof or evidence for something. 810 00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:50,210 Q: They don't. 811 00:45:50,210 --> 00:45:55,740 S: Maybe not... Now you leave behind such a trail of evidence yourself. 812 00:45:55,740 --> 00:45:58,410 That could be read somewhere in the future. 813 00:45:58,410 --> 00:46:02,050 What happens in ten years, when in the US 814 00:46:02,050 --> 00:46:06,770 like smoking, drinking isn't socially acceptable anymore. 815 00:46:06,770 --> 00:46:10,460 What happens to you then, with your Facebook entry 816 00:46:10,460 --> 00:46:12,990 that's twenty years old then. 817 00:46:12,990 --> 00:46:17,030 It's a weird system, yeah, but… *shrugging* 818 00:46:17,030 --> 00:46:20,240 Herald: We have another question from the internet. 819 00:46:20,240 --> 00:46:24,440 Signal Angel: Somebody from IRC is asking whether you have tried 820 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,190 to contact other agencies? 821 00:46:26,190 --> 00:46:31,410 S: Yes, like the BND, which was not very successful. 822 00:46:31,410 --> 00:46:37,170 And regarding the spies taking pictures of spies I tried with the British archive. 823 00:46:37,170 --> 00:46:39,190 I know these pictures still exist. 824 00:46:39,190 --> 00:46:42,020 I know where they exist. 825 00:46:42,020 --> 00:46:45,070 But... sorry. 826 00:46:45,070 --> 00:46:50,810 With the Czech, I was asked by the Goethe Institut to approach them. 827 00:46:50,810 --> 00:46:54,360 It was difficult and too lengthy to explain now, 828 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,590 it was very difficult working with them. 829 00:46:56,590 --> 00:46:59,170 Language wise and because of the structure 830 00:46:59,170 --> 00:47:02,460 of the Archive itself. 831 00:47:02,460 --> 00:47:07,890 But they were very open, and if you want to do more research, 832 00:47:07,890 --> 00:47:11,050 go to the Czech Republic first, because it's much easier to work with them 833 00:47:11,050 --> 00:47:16,330 on a bureaucratic level, than with the Germans. 834 00:47:16,330 --> 00:47:21,050 But the Germans are, in a way, more organised. 835 00:47:21,050 --> 00:47:22,400 *laughter* 836 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,190 Well, they are Germans. 837 00:47:25,190 --> 00:47:29,130 Herald: Your question: 838 00:47:29,130 --> 00:47:34,290 Q: How hard was it to get the material, although it is not classified anymore? 839 00:47:34,290 --> 00:47:36,510 How much time did you invest? 840 00:47:36,510 --> 00:47:41,540 S: The hardest time was the waiting periods in between requests. 841 00:47:41,540 --> 00:47:44,160 German bureaucracy takes forever. 842 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:50,540 But I am quite sure, I am from West Germany, but now I have a huge file in this archive. 843 00:47:50,540 --> 00:47:52,600 Because they compile everything. 844 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,750 So they keep track of every picture you're looking at. 845 00:47:55,750 --> 00:48:01,060 But the funny thing is, it's not hard at all, you can do it as well. 846 00:48:01,060 --> 00:48:02,780 You don't have to be a researcher. 847 00:48:02,780 --> 00:48:06,360 And the archive considers research a human right. 848 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,320 Which I learned then, and it's a very convenient thing. 849 00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:16,600 There are some elderly Stasi agents who spend their retirement researching something something. 850 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,690 They can do that. 851 00:48:18,690 --> 00:48:24,390 And the weird thing was, most of the pictures, no one had looked at before. 852 00:48:24,390 --> 00:48:29,470 That could be proven, because they keep track of everything. 853 00:48:29,470 --> 00:48:32,950 The process is lengthy but very easy 854 00:48:32,950 --> 00:48:36,940 Q: When you decided to dig through the archive, 855 00:48:36,940 --> 00:48:41,300 did you have to apply for a certain section. 856 00:48:41,300 --> 00:48:44,890 or could you just walk in and say, show me all your pictures. 857 00:48:44,890 --> 00:48:51,100 S: No, they were very open, they may have closed after me. 858 00:48:51,100 --> 00:48:56,780 For them, it was strangely overwhelming, the amount of feedback they got 859 00:48:56,780 --> 00:48:59,700 after my book came out. 860 00:48:59,700 --> 00:49:05,440 And they want to be left alone, I think… (laughing) 861 00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,480 You have to formulate it quite clearly. 862 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,050 Q: What exactly, your aim? 863 00:49:13,050 --> 00:49:20,170 S: A theme. But for me, because it was new to me, and to them as well, 864 00:49:20,170 --> 00:49:24,940 the topic, 'Surveillance and Photography', was very broad. 865 00:49:24,940 --> 00:49:30,750 Now they get requests like 'We want to see what Simon Menner saw.' 866 00:49:30,750 --> 00:49:32,700 They don't accept something like this. 867 00:49:32,700 --> 00:49:34,490 So, you have to come up with something more clever. 868 00:49:34,490 --> 00:49:37,300 Q: And how much time did you spend in their dungeons? 869 00:49:37,300 --> 00:49:40,180 S: Well, it took three years... 870 00:49:40,180 --> 00:49:44,880 On and off, but it's mostly waiting, in between. 871 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,220 Be patient. 872 00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:51,220 Herald: Okay, your question. 873 00:49:51,220 --> 00:49:54,840 Q: Modern state agencies, including NSA and BND, have this 874 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,710 mentality of 'Collect it all' passive intelligence. 875 00:49:58,710 --> 00:50:01,830 It has this ability to minimise the impact and damage. 876 00:50:01,830 --> 00:50:05,890 No human eyes looking at specific pieces of surveillance. 877 00:50:05,890 --> 00:50:08,160 Of course we know that's not true, 878 00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,660 and they can zero-in if they want to. 879 00:50:10,660 --> 00:50:16,100 Doesn't this make it very difficult, as an archivist how do you 880 00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:19,220 try to understand the state of mind, when you have so much data, unprocessed? 881 00:50:19,220 --> 00:50:28,920 How do you get in their mind, filtering through, not no documents, but a hundred million documents? 882 00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:35,170 S: One has to be very careful with such material, because you look through their eyes. 883 00:50:35,170 --> 00:50:37,860 That can be dangerous. 884 00:50:37,860 --> 00:50:44,330 That's why I try not to provide that much 'background information' 885 00:50:44,330 --> 00:50:50,240 because, that would be text compiled by the Stasi agents. 886 00:50:50,240 --> 00:50:54,980 So there is guilty and not guilty written in the text. 887 00:50:54,980 --> 00:50:58,500 And I don't want to look at these pictures through their eyes. 888 00:50:58,500 --> 00:51:03,680 But still I find it very revealing to look at the raw material. 889 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,000 And the Stasi would have collected all 890 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:13,590 if they had been able, they opened every parcel to East Germany, every letter. 891 00:51:13,590 --> 00:51:20,810 Paranoia wise, they were several steps ahead of the NSA. 892 00:51:20,810 --> 00:51:26,740 They had a university, and when you were studying there, you could do your PhD, but you 893 00:51:26,740 --> 00:51:30,260 weren't allowed to keep your notes during the day, 894 00:51:30,260 --> 00:51:32,800 they were locked away. 895 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,700 In safes with doors on two sides... 896 00:51:35,700 --> 00:51:38,340 So they would copy them at night, 897 00:51:38,340 --> 00:51:40,780 And you weren't allowed to keep your PhD thesis, 898 00:51:40,780 --> 00:51:44,530 because it immediately became top secret. 899 00:51:44,530 --> 00:51:48,090 And that really is paranoia. 900 00:51:48,090 --> 00:51:54,440 I can not prove it. And that's the problem with the whole thing, 901 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,450 because one side remains closed. 902 00:51:58,450 --> 00:52:03,140 And I guess they are quite happy with that situation, 903 00:52:03,140 --> 00:52:08,160 they can still say, no, we did something else. 904 00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,620 Well, we can't tell you, but it's not like this. 905 00:52:11,620 --> 00:52:18,950 That is very vague, but I think the state of mind is the same. 906 00:52:18,950 --> 00:52:23,480 Q: What is the copyright on these pictures? Are they in the public domain? 907 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,920 Can I use them for memes? 908 00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,210 S: Uhm, no. *laughter* 909 00:52:29,210 --> 00:52:33,770 Well, most are on my website in a low resolution. 910 00:52:33,770 --> 00:52:37,920 Which the archive doesn't like, but it's there. 911 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:41,530 The problem is that: There is a law that covers the archive. 912 00:52:41,530 --> 00:52:46,650 It's not like other archives in Germany. It has its own law. 913 00:52:46,650 --> 00:52:50,490 And that was written in the early 90's by lawmakers. 914 00:52:50,490 --> 00:52:53,310 We all know them and love them. 915 00:52:53,310 --> 00:52:58,830 And they never thought of an artist coming along and show them. 916 00:52:58,830 --> 00:53:03,480 So the law covers publication. 917 00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:10,980 Once you got access to material, you are allowed publicize it 918 00:53:10,980 --> 00:53:13,070 Nothing else is stated. 919 00:53:13,070 --> 00:53:17,910 But you aren't allowed to hand over the files. 920 00:53:17,910 --> 00:53:22,850 And I had lengthy debates with the Archive about what that could mean. 921 00:53:22,850 --> 00:53:26,820 Since, when you have it on the website, you hand out the files. 922 00:53:26,820 --> 00:53:29,830 But I said no, it's publicising it -- no, no, no. 923 00:53:29,830 --> 00:53:31,790 So, what's the difference? Well, 924 00:53:31,790 --> 00:53:35,540 we don't really know but, ahem. 925 00:53:35,540 --> 00:53:39,230 So, it's tricky. 926 00:53:39,230 --> 00:53:45,250 And so many people copied it from my website, so it is out there and gone. 927 00:53:45,250 --> 00:53:47,800 Which I think is good. 928 00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,060 Herald: We have time for one more question. 929 00:53:50,060 --> 00:53:59,840 S: And I will be around, if you recognise my bald head, talk to me. 930 00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:04,710 Q; Where you able to access files other than images? 931 00:54:04,710 --> 00:54:06,890 Like audio from phone surveillance? 932 00:54:06,890 --> 00:54:09,720 S: Ah, that is a very tricky thing. 933 00:54:09,720 --> 00:54:14,170 You could listen to those, but getting them is almost impossible. 934 00:54:14,170 --> 00:54:17,820 Because, German privacy laws again. 935 00:54:17,820 --> 00:54:27,040 And their argument is, whenever you speak, you could reveal something private. 936 00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:31,530 And that's their argument. Even though you might be Erich Honecker 937 00:54:31,530 --> 00:54:37,880 or Helmut Kohl or something like that. But still it could be private what you're saying. 938 00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,600 That's why they could never release them, and 939 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:48,230 you could not publish that, because it could be private. 940 00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:57,850 So, it's a somewhat strange law. But noone is going to change anymore. 941 00:54:57,850 --> 00:55:00,680 Herald: And the last question over here. 942 00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:07,830 Q: I am interested from where you know what was shown by the photographs. 943 00:55:07,830 --> 00:55:14,410 Were there captions like "spies spying on spy" or thought you about an explanation by yourself? 944 00:55:14,410 --> 00:55:19,310 S: There are gazillions of km of files. 945 00:55:19,310 --> 00:55:25,330 And just very few photographs, so there is always alot of background information. 946 00:55:25,330 --> 00:55:32,240 And the greatest thing… and why I… people I am absolutely thankful towards 947 00:55:32,240 --> 00:55:37,440 are the… - there were only ladies - working really at the archive, 948 00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:42,600 handing me the files, giving me copies. Because the most important thing 949 00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:46,350 - and that is always true working with an archive - 950 00:55:46,350 --> 00:55:49,910 the trickiest part is, how do you find something you don't know exists. 951 00:55:49,910 --> 00:55:52,880 Because you can't ask for it. 952 00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:58,150 'I am really looking for ... is there a birthday party?' 953 00:55:58,150 --> 00:56:00,460 You will never ask for something like this. 954 00:56:00,460 --> 00:56:05,760 But once you've earned the trust of the people working there, they provide you 955 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,250 and provided me with these images. 956 00:56:08,250 --> 00:56:12,980 Because they knew, in what direction I was looking for material. 957 00:56:12,980 --> 00:56:18,910 There was in most cases background information. 958 00:56:18,910 --> 00:56:26,360 There was one image I didn't include in the talk of a dead swan. 959 00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:30,040 It's a famous set of four images. 960 00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:38,170 It was only known that it was found in a vault owned by Erich Mielke, the head of Stasi, personally. 961 00:56:38,170 --> 00:56:42,970 It's four images of a grave of a dead swan with a GDR flag. 962 00:56:42,970 --> 00:56:47,840 That is very famous for being the biggest mystery in the Stasi files, 963 00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,610 because nothing can be found about these images. 964 00:56:50,610 --> 00:56:53,530 I didn't include them in the talk, sorry. 965 00:56:53,530 --> 00:56:59,610 But it's a dead swan, very mysterious, must have been important. *laughter* 966 00:56:59,610 --> 00:57:02,920 Herald: Thank you Simon, very much. Simon: Thank you. 967 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:07,400 *applause* 968 00:57:08,817 --> 00:57:12,917 *postroll music*